Aimee Mann will always be one of my favorite recording artists of all time. “On Sunday” still slaps 36 years (!!) after it was released, and only Mann could pull off an entire album based on Girl, Interrupted.
All this is to say, I hope she’s as lovely in person as she comes across in interviews and in her songs. Kinda jealous you got to hang with her (but also happy for you).
1) “You do not need to live in fear of the judgement of a future you. Chances are, they will be pretty forgiving of present you.” Love this!
2) Also love that I have the same issues with couch indecision as someone with a PhD.
3) Anon, moms are not couches! You are not at fault for having the one you have. It is OK to accept it will likely never re-upholster itself with a fabric that is more sane and loving, and to do as you have done and just quietly put it on the curb. As others who have done the same have said -- it leaves so much more room in your life for new things and people that do fit. Maybe it’ll never be the same. Maybe it’s two rad chairs and an end table and not a sofa. But chosen family and chosen furniture you love are the best that some of us get in this life. Better that than suffering forever to keep something in your space that takes up so much real estate and gives nothing back but emotional bedbugs.
To C. I am 72 and the best advice someone gave me when I was in my 30’s was to be myself and to like myself. It was so easy and for me it changed my life. Good luck
“My waffle maker is a horrible desk lamp, but my desk lamp can’t make waffles to save its measly robot life.” ... a nugget of wisdom I am most certainly going to lob onto an unsuspecting stranger or family member at some point in the not too distant future. 😀
To the 43yo who needs permission to go no-contact with their narcissistic parent: DO IT. Prioritize yourself. Start reading about clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder (not just on social media, but get the DSM and read research and essays by psychotherapists who diagnose and treat NPD -- and after you have a solid working knowledge about the clinical NPD diagnosis, try to find a community of people you can trust to share stories of their own NPD parents and their own experiences. People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder are among the least likely to change, they are unlikely to even seek therapy to change, because they fundamentally lack empathy. They only see their children as appendages, extensions of themselves. In general, they are simply not capable of giving us what we need or deserve as human beings who they were supposed to parent and nurture, because they are not wired to be able to do so. After a lifetime of abuse -- and after learning that they raised me in a way thats resulted in me having to deal with Parentified Child Syndrome (I'd look into that a lot as well, in case it may resonate with your experience as well) -- knowledge of the clinical nature of their condition and how thoroughly f*cked and wrong it was but that it would never change... that was what helped me finally realize that I had the right to prioritize my mental health and well being by going no-contact. I cannot recommend it enough. I understand the guilt you are wrestling with, because if your experience is at all similar to mine, you were not raised in a way where your needs mattered, only your narcissistic parent's needs mattered: but I am here to tell you that it is not your job to take care of your mum's needs, it was hers. She was the mother, you are the kid. And at some point in your life (why not 43?), it is time to let go of the burden of guilt, of her needs and whims and rages, the guilt she and perhaps other family or community members are trying to heap on you. It is time to admit that while it was unfair that you didn't have the mum you needed, and that every kid deserved, it is also 100% fair and right for you to take care of yourself now. And sometimes taking care of yourself means leaving an abuser. If every time you speak to someone who is supposed to love you, but they rage at you, mistreat you, and you feel terrible, then that person is not healthy for you to be around. If that person was a romantic partner it's likely that most of your friends and most therapists would advise you to leave the toxic relationship and find ways to heal from emotional/mental/verbal abuse. Unfortunately we live in a world where people nearly universally encourage children (including adult kids) to forgive or overlook or just swallow parents' mental, emotional, and verbal abuse because "they're family" and "they're the only parents you have" and "you own them because they gave birth to you/fed and clothed you when you were a child," etc. That kind of advice doesn't take into consideration that parents should not get lifelong free passes to be abusive to their kids because they did the bare minimum that wouldn't get their kids taken away by CPS. I'm assuming your mum fed you, clothed you etc: so what? That is quite literally every parent's baseline job. But the bigger job of parenting is to raise physically and emotionally healthy kids who have a shot at living happy lives. It is not to make their kids into emotionally indentured servants to tend to their whims forever. If you need to detach from that dynamic, I hope you can find the strength to do it, and to eventually let go of the guilt and heal from it.
I am in a unique position to give advice here, as I am an only child of two parents who were also only children (meaning, I was the only immediate relative in their lives), and BOTH my parents are clinical narcissists. I was 42 when I finally went no-contact with my narcissistic mother, and I should have done it twenty years earlier because if I had, I would have been able to avoid an additional lifetime's worth of trauma. (I am on very limited contact with my father, and I'd be full NC if it was at all possible -- but a Trump-level narc has no concept of "boundaries.") I'll spare the details about how and why I finally became estranged, but after a lifetime of abuse and trauma from childhood through adulthood -- and endless guilt about why I needed to remain in their lives -- it was EXTREMELY liberating when I finally chose to stop speaking with them. There were many side benefits I never expected: I knew I would no longer have to deal with new forms of abusive language and behavior from them, but I didn't realize how much space in my brain would be cleared out. This extra brain space has allowed me the energy to devote to other, better things. I finally opened up enough to get serious with and move in with my partner. I was able to medically deal with chronic health stuff that had been worsened by stress. My migraines and stomach cramps started to dissipate. I had more creative energy to put into my writing. The list goes on. It was the best decision I ever made.
Some things to expect: If you do go no contact with a narcissistic parent they will often do everything they can to break your boundaries, including some or all of the following: They will scream, they will cry, they will hurl insults. They may also attempt to sweet-talk you into believing they've changed, but that won't last. They may call you and leave nasty voicemails (one that I still laugh about: my mother leaving a voicemail on my birthday where she opened with singing the happy birthday song, and then immediately transitioned from the song to "You are a terrible person for abandoning your mother!" and then ranted for three minutes along those lines). They may email. They may send letters. If they're like my father, they'll show up at your apartment unannounced to bang on the door at all hours of the day and night. They'll probably enlist "flying monkeys" -- allies in the family or among their friends who they've manipulated into trying to bring you back into the fold by any means necessary. They may threaten to withhold money if they have money they've promised you (my family has no money so there was nothing to hold over me, but I've seen this happen with others). They may pretend they don't understand why you have gone no-contact. They may pretend they don't understand the boundaries you have set and try to behave as if you never said anything about those particular boundaries in the first place. They will almost certainly attempt to gaslight you into thinking you've misunderstood or misrepresented them or the situation. They will tell you you'll regret it... but if you're anything like me, you may wrestle with that guilt for a while but eventually you'll realize it was THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING you could ever have done for yourself. You may find your life opening up in brilliant, wonderful ways once you eventually create the space you need away from that stream of negativity. I hope you also have good friends and chosen family who you can rely on during this time; I wouldn't have been able to get through this myself without my community.
You have every right to live a happy and healthy life. And none of that guilt tripping from them or their flying monkeys can hide that truth. You deserved parents who prioritized your well being. Since you didn't get that, it is now up to you to be your resilient self and start prioritizing your own needs instead of their demands. May 2023 be the year when you finally become the most important person in your own life, with the help of those you love who also love you.
PS, Josh: I want to make a little desk plaque out of "My waffle maker is a horrible desk lamp..." for days when I'm feeling writer's blocked. What a fantastic line.
To D.E. I also have a final round interview on Wednesday! Sending you the absolute best energy ! I'm sure you are going to go in there and impress the heck out of them. You got this.
Aimee Mann will always be one of my favorite recording artists of all time. “On Sunday” still slaps 36 years (!!) after it was released, and only Mann could pull off an entire album based on Girl, Interrupted.
All this is to say, I hope she’s as lovely in person as she comes across in interviews and in her songs. Kinda jealous you got to hang with her (but also happy for you).
Dear Anon,
This little book has really helped my family.
https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/julie-l-hall/the-narcissist-in-your-life/9780738285788/
No contact, or bust! <3
1) “You do not need to live in fear of the judgement of a future you. Chances are, they will be pretty forgiving of present you.” Love this!
2) Also love that I have the same issues with couch indecision as someone with a PhD.
3) Anon, moms are not couches! You are not at fault for having the one you have. It is OK to accept it will likely never re-upholster itself with a fabric that is more sane and loving, and to do as you have done and just quietly put it on the curb. As others who have done the same have said -- it leaves so much more room in your life for new things and people that do fit. Maybe it’ll never be the same. Maybe it’s two rad chairs and an end table and not a sofa. But chosen family and chosen furniture you love are the best that some of us get in this life. Better that than suffering forever to keep something in your space that takes up so much real estate and gives nothing back but emotional bedbugs.
I’m in love with Douglas
Doctor Worm was the best way to start the day. Great pep talks. Thanks Josh!
Huge Aimee Mann fan here! Her songs are routinely still included on many of my playlists 🥰
To C. I am 72 and the best advice someone gave me when I was in my 30’s was to be myself and to like myself. It was so easy and for me it changed my life. Good luck
Doctor Worm makes me tear up every time. He’s so earnest!
“My waffle maker is a horrible desk lamp, but my desk lamp can’t make waffles to save its measly robot life.” ... a nugget of wisdom I am most certainly going to lob onto an unsuspecting stranger or family member at some point in the not too distant future. 😀
dear josh,
thank you as always for all of this and all of everything.
some specific phrases and sentiments i love (AMONG ALL OF THEM):
-- it sounds like your 2-year-old has CEO-level confidence
-- jobs are like hats
-- Unless your job requires you to wear a green visor (RARE CASE OF A HAT REQUIRING A HAT!)
-- You are probably cooler than you give yourself credit for.
-- My waffle maker is a horrible desk lamp
-- Sorry to that deer.
thanks josh!
love,
myq
"a massive, Talented Mr. Ripley amount of deception"
Great pep talk....but the "Talented Mr. Ripley" reference is now out-dated. In the future, it should be "Congressman George Santos" instead.
To the 43yo who needs permission to go no-contact with their narcissistic parent: DO IT. Prioritize yourself. Start reading about clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder (not just on social media, but get the DSM and read research and essays by psychotherapists who diagnose and treat NPD -- and after you have a solid working knowledge about the clinical NPD diagnosis, try to find a community of people you can trust to share stories of their own NPD parents and their own experiences. People with Narcissistic Personality Disorder are among the least likely to change, they are unlikely to even seek therapy to change, because they fundamentally lack empathy. They only see their children as appendages, extensions of themselves. In general, they are simply not capable of giving us what we need or deserve as human beings who they were supposed to parent and nurture, because they are not wired to be able to do so. After a lifetime of abuse -- and after learning that they raised me in a way thats resulted in me having to deal with Parentified Child Syndrome (I'd look into that a lot as well, in case it may resonate with your experience as well) -- knowledge of the clinical nature of their condition and how thoroughly f*cked and wrong it was but that it would never change... that was what helped me finally realize that I had the right to prioritize my mental health and well being by going no-contact. I cannot recommend it enough. I understand the guilt you are wrestling with, because if your experience is at all similar to mine, you were not raised in a way where your needs mattered, only your narcissistic parent's needs mattered: but I am here to tell you that it is not your job to take care of your mum's needs, it was hers. She was the mother, you are the kid. And at some point in your life (why not 43?), it is time to let go of the burden of guilt, of her needs and whims and rages, the guilt she and perhaps other family or community members are trying to heap on you. It is time to admit that while it was unfair that you didn't have the mum you needed, and that every kid deserved, it is also 100% fair and right for you to take care of yourself now. And sometimes taking care of yourself means leaving an abuser. If every time you speak to someone who is supposed to love you, but they rage at you, mistreat you, and you feel terrible, then that person is not healthy for you to be around. If that person was a romantic partner it's likely that most of your friends and most therapists would advise you to leave the toxic relationship and find ways to heal from emotional/mental/verbal abuse. Unfortunately we live in a world where people nearly universally encourage children (including adult kids) to forgive or overlook or just swallow parents' mental, emotional, and verbal abuse because "they're family" and "they're the only parents you have" and "you own them because they gave birth to you/fed and clothed you when you were a child," etc. That kind of advice doesn't take into consideration that parents should not get lifelong free passes to be abusive to their kids because they did the bare minimum that wouldn't get their kids taken away by CPS. I'm assuming your mum fed you, clothed you etc: so what? That is quite literally every parent's baseline job. But the bigger job of parenting is to raise physically and emotionally healthy kids who have a shot at living happy lives. It is not to make their kids into emotionally indentured servants to tend to their whims forever. If you need to detach from that dynamic, I hope you can find the strength to do it, and to eventually let go of the guilt and heal from it.
I am in a unique position to give advice here, as I am an only child of two parents who were also only children (meaning, I was the only immediate relative in their lives), and BOTH my parents are clinical narcissists. I was 42 when I finally went no-contact with my narcissistic mother, and I should have done it twenty years earlier because if I had, I would have been able to avoid an additional lifetime's worth of trauma. (I am on very limited contact with my father, and I'd be full NC if it was at all possible -- but a Trump-level narc has no concept of "boundaries.") I'll spare the details about how and why I finally became estranged, but after a lifetime of abuse and trauma from childhood through adulthood -- and endless guilt about why I needed to remain in their lives -- it was EXTREMELY liberating when I finally chose to stop speaking with them. There were many side benefits I never expected: I knew I would no longer have to deal with new forms of abusive language and behavior from them, but I didn't realize how much space in my brain would be cleared out. This extra brain space has allowed me the energy to devote to other, better things. I finally opened up enough to get serious with and move in with my partner. I was able to medically deal with chronic health stuff that had been worsened by stress. My migraines and stomach cramps started to dissipate. I had more creative energy to put into my writing. The list goes on. It was the best decision I ever made.
Some things to expect: If you do go no contact with a narcissistic parent they will often do everything they can to break your boundaries, including some or all of the following: They will scream, they will cry, they will hurl insults. They may also attempt to sweet-talk you into believing they've changed, but that won't last. They may call you and leave nasty voicemails (one that I still laugh about: my mother leaving a voicemail on my birthday where she opened with singing the happy birthday song, and then immediately transitioned from the song to "You are a terrible person for abandoning your mother!" and then ranted for three minutes along those lines). They may email. They may send letters. If they're like my father, they'll show up at your apartment unannounced to bang on the door at all hours of the day and night. They'll probably enlist "flying monkeys" -- allies in the family or among their friends who they've manipulated into trying to bring you back into the fold by any means necessary. They may threaten to withhold money if they have money they've promised you (my family has no money so there was nothing to hold over me, but I've seen this happen with others). They may pretend they don't understand why you have gone no-contact. They may pretend they don't understand the boundaries you have set and try to behave as if you never said anything about those particular boundaries in the first place. They will almost certainly attempt to gaslight you into thinking you've misunderstood or misrepresented them or the situation. They will tell you you'll regret it... but if you're anything like me, you may wrestle with that guilt for a while but eventually you'll realize it was THE ABSOLUTE BEST THING you could ever have done for yourself. You may find your life opening up in brilliant, wonderful ways once you eventually create the space you need away from that stream of negativity. I hope you also have good friends and chosen family who you can rely on during this time; I wouldn't have been able to get through this myself without my community.
You have every right to live a happy and healthy life. And none of that guilt tripping from them or their flying monkeys can hide that truth. You deserved parents who prioritized your well being. Since you didn't get that, it is now up to you to be your resilient self and start prioritizing your own needs instead of their demands. May 2023 be the year when you finally become the most important person in your own life, with the help of those you love who also love you.
PS, Josh: I want to make a little desk plaque out of "My waffle maker is a horrible desk lamp..." for days when I'm feeling writer's blocked. What a fantastic line.
To D.E. I also have a final round interview on Wednesday! Sending you the absolute best energy ! I'm sure you are going to go in there and impress the heck out of them. You got this.